Communization of the Whole World in Five Years or Less: A practical guide

I have been paying more attention to the communization tendency of late. For those who are unaware of this tendency, the communization tendency is a radical offshoot of communism that proposes we set as our immediate goal the complete abolition of property, wage labor and the state in order to directly and immediately establish a fully communist society.

According to Wikipedia,

“In these accounts humanity as a whole, directly or indirectly, would take over the task of the production of goods for use (and not for exchange). People would then have free access to those goods rather than exchanging labor for money, and distribution would take place according to the maxim ‘from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.'”

As can be inferred from this short description of communization, communizers dispense with the so-called ‘lower phase’ of communism (sometimes called socialism) and move directly to a fully functioning communist society where that will be no classes, money or state.

The idea is very close to my own view that capital has so developed the social forces of production that society is in the position to move directly to full communism. This is a decidedly different situation than the one that prevailed at the time Marx and Engels wrote the Communist Manifesto.

In 1848, the social forces of production had not reached such a state of maturity as to permit the immediate establishment of a communist society. The Manifesto advanced a sort of work around in which the working class would organize itself as a ruling class and do what capital had not yet finished doing: create the material foundation of a fully communist society. In the 170 years since the Manifesto was written, however, much of that preparatory work has been accomplished by capital itself.

What remains for us today is to take control of society and immediately realize full communism; to complete the socialization of labor by ending the buying and selling of labor power.

Unfortunately, as allsotiresome nicely put it, the idea of communization remains “practically and strategically undertheorised”. No one really knows what a movement committed to the immediate establishment of a fully functioning communist society looks like, what its goals are, or how it intends to realize those goals. Communization very much remains just another idea on paper.

This essay is my attempt to help remedy this defect.

*****

So, let’s talk about communism in as practical a way as possible

To focus our minds on the subject in the most practical way possible, let’s set a hypothetical target for our fully communist society in the very near future — say, in five years. In other words, in five years we want to have a fully functioning world communism up and running. With time so short, we need to start getting ready for it right now.

Is this approach wrong-headed?

Well, in 1971 several countries in Europe got together and decided to set a goal for a single market with a single currency. I do not see why setting a target date for communism is any more unthinkable than creating a common currency among countries that only a few years before had been locked in mortal conflict.

I’ll admit that it took 30 years to make good on the goal of a single market in Europe, but the time it might take is not important for this exercise. What is important is that now that we have a target date, March 2023, what exactly is it we want to accomplish by that date? Not details, mind you. We can leave the details to a later point. I am talking about the broad strokes, like the creation of the euro. The six members of the EC set out a broad goal: a single currency.

They did not get into details. Similarly, in broad strokes, we can set a goal to reach communism by March 2023 and leave the details for the future?

Concretely, what do we mean by the term “communism”

We all know what a currency is, but what exactly is communism? What do we expect to have in place by March 2023?

By March 2023, we want to have a society founded on the principle of “from each according to ability, to each according to need.”. We want, in other words, to completely sever the connection between individual hours of labor and individual consumption. While the six members of the EC wanted to create a single currency for their six nations, we want to abolish all currency in the whole world. After March 2023, no one anywhere on the planet will need money to pay for anything. You just walk into a store and go home with your groceries or whatever.

Now, that is a tall order because it applies to everyone, everywhere, from Buffalo to Bogota to Burundi to Burma to Beijing and back again.

Don’t ask if this is a realistic five-year plan. We can address the scheduling problem later. For now, let’s just focus on what it is we want to do.

At present, it is not possible to know if we can get to communism in five years or five hundred years because we don’t yet know how much labor it would take to to realize communism as defined above. Does it take an average of 40 hours of labor per person per week to satisfy the basic need of everybody on the planet? 20 hours of labor per person per week? Or five hours of labor per person per week?

Frankly, we don’t know because no one has ever tried to calculate this.

The biggest problem, however, is not trying to calculate how much labor time communism requires per person per week, but that communists are almost completely incapable of thinking about communism concretely. It may be possible that we could satisfy all basic human needs right now with no more labor than individuals are willing to give voluntarily, but we would never know this because communists have no real idea what they mean by communism.

For most communists, communism is an abstraction, a philosophical concept dancing around in our heads, not an actual society with certain definite material requirements.

Let’s fix this

Communism concretely defined

Does our goal mean everyone can have everything in their most incredible fantasy?

No.

Does it mean everyone will have a mansion and a yacht, like Elmer J. Fudd?

Again, no.

What then is included in this communism that I am talking about?

Have you ever seen the basket of goods that composes the consumer price index of a country? Basically, I mean that.

The components of the American Consumer Price Index (CPI) is a list of the prices of all of the commodities that go into working class consumption. This index is composed of a basket of goods ordinarily purchased by workers. We can say that the commodities listed in the CPI are the equivalent of labor power stated in the form of the commodities that go into its value. The basket of use value is tracked by most governments and used as a measure of the price of labor power.

The links below will take you to the basket of basic goods that compose the CPI in three countries today:

Not surprising, the chief fascist states know the prices of the components of labor power almost down to the last bean. And they track the change in those prices religiously. Which is fortunate for us because we can use the same basket of goods to define what we mean by providing for basic human needs anywhere on the planet. On this basis, we should be able to calculate, almost down to the second, how much labor time goes into the production of the goods required to satisfy basic need of the whole world.

The goal is that in five years every person living on the planet will have all of their basic needs met irrespective of their labor contribution. We then can use this as our first approximation for what we mean by the term communism. We can call this first approximation the “material economic foundation of communism” and set this as the goal we hope to achieve within five years.

*****

A working definition of communism: Concretely stated, when we speak of a society founded on the principle of “from each according to ability, to each according to need“, we are explicitly referring to a society where all the basic needs of human beings are met employing only the labor individuals voluntarily provide to society based on their own desire to be productive, creative, persons. No one has to be compelled to labor or offer anything in return for their access to this basket of commodities. Thus, they are free to engage in any pursuit that brings them satisfaction. They exercise their human capacities only in those directions they desire.

*****

But, what about …?

The first objection to this approach may be that even if we define communism in terms of a basket of commodities like the American CPI provided to each individual on the planet without regards to their labor contribution, the whole world cannot afford an American level of consumption based on that basket of goods.

This might be true because we don’t have sufficient means of production at hand to be able to produce this standard of living. However, the lack of means to produce on this scale, may change our timetable, but it doesn’t make the goal impossible. The goal may require a certain preliminary investment, but it is still doable. It may just take us ten or twenty years, instead of five. This objection is not really about the goal, but about the timetable.

Second, it may also be objected that the proposed standard of living is not environmentally sustainable. This objection might appear to kill the idea altogether. Given the impact we are already having on the environment, the prospect of 7 billion people enjoying an American standard of living seems completely unsustainable — at least to the people now enjoying that standard of living.

The problem with this second objection is that no one has ever actually calculated the environmental impact of a typical American CPI basket of goods. Since no one has ever actually taken the time to calculate the environmental impact of a typical American basket of goods, how can we take this objection seriously? It is likely complete bullshit. Perhaps it is not bullshit, but how would we know?

Bizarrely, we know the price of a typical basket of commodities consumed by the American working class, but we don’t know how much labor it requires nor its environmental impact. And, there is a reason we don’t know the cost of the basket in terms of human labor time and the environment: capital doesn’t give a fuck about such things. It’s only concern is how much profit is to be had, not the cost of this profit in human beings and the environment.

Interestingly, no objection is made that providing for the basic needs of the entire population of the planet without labor may not be profitable. Instead opponents of communism point to the lack of means and environmental impact of providing the basket.

How hypocritical.

How do you propose to realize this communism?

Now I have set a target date for communism, March 2023. And I have defined communism as the provision to everyone on the planet of a basket of goods represented in the consumer price index of the United States.

I think it is possible on this basis to establish how much labor time is required for an entry level full communism of this sort. To meet our definition of communism, the duration of social labor (per month, week or day) required for production of this basket of goods must be less than what individuals might voluntarily contribute. In other words, if individuals, motivated solely by their desire to be productive, voluntarily contributed more labor time than is required to provide everyone this basket of goods, we would have full communism. In other words we can sever the connection between labor and consumption for everyone on the planet.

Of course, this is not fully automated luxury communism. It is just an entry level sort of communism. But it satisfies our definition of communism as a society founded on the principle of “from each according to ability, to each according to need.” We still can get to the luxury version of full communism in due time.

Cool! So we just pass a law abolishing wage slavery and — BOOM — full communism?

Not so fast. There is a real problem with a strategy that assumes we can vote communism into existence.

In the first place capital requires surplus labor time to produce profits. This means, over and above whatever labor time is required to provide everyone on the planet with an American-style basket of goods, we would have to tack on additional labor time to cover the profits of capital. The capitalists are not going to want to give up this surplus labor time. They will fight us tooth and nail to prevent abolishing wage labor.

The real problem, however, is that the existing state, no less than capital, requires surplus labor time for its revenues. This means, over and above whatever labor time is required to provide everyone on the planet with an American-style basket of goods, and over and above whatever additional labor time is required to cover the profits of capital, we need a still greater additional increment of surplus labor time to cover the revenues of the bourgeois state.

This is a big obstacle for any strategy based on a political movement. As can be seen in the chart below, at present the state sector consumes about 40 percent, and in many cases in excess of 50 percent, of the total output of OECD countries. That is a huge quantity of surplus labor time that the existing state will not concede lightly.

General government spending, as a share of GDP for selected OECD countries. (Source: OECD)

The existing state is, by far, the very largest consumer of the surplus labor time expended in any OECD country and likely has been the largest single consumer of surplus value since World War I. As Roland Boer observes in a recent blog post, “the very nature of the bourgeois state is to exploit the working class”. Moreover, in return for this consumption the state provides nothing that can be used by us to create a society where all basic needs of human beings are met without requiring labor from anyone.

To this I should add that the relentless expansion of the state in the 20th century is made necessary by the explosive increase in the productivity of social labor. The state itself has assumed the function of what some Marxists at the turn of the 20th century called “third persons”, a sector of the so-called economy whose non-capitalist (and entirely unproductive) consumption is now required to absorb the excess product of social labor. Without this consumption, which operates like a countervailing influence preventing a fall in the rate of profit, capital would have collapsed a long time ago.

While capital exploits the working class and consumes their surplus labor time, at least it consumes this labor time productively, i.e., with an eye toward increasing the scale of production. By contrast, the state produces nothing — neither values nor use-values. It leaves society worse off than it was before.

The state sector as the low hanging fruit for communization

The massive state sector is bad news for the strategy of voting communism into existence, but, paradoxically, it is also good news in a certain sense.  The monstrous growth of the state sector, especially in all of the most developed economies over the past 100 years or so, means that this unproductive consumption — unproductive not just in the capitalist sense, but absolutely unproductive even of use values — is the low hanging fruit for communization.

Far from expecting to employ the state as an instrument to abolish wage labor, the abolition of the existing state is today the necessary precondition for the abolition of wage labor and a society founded on the principle of “to each according to need.”

Today, any realistic strategy of communization requires the direct and immediate abolition of the state and the conversion of the surplus labor time locked up in this sector directly into free time for everyone. There is no substitute for this strategy; no other way to get to full communism without first abolishing the state.

Communism cannot be voted into existence because the state itself is the immediate target of communization.

So, if we can’t vote communism into existence, how do we get there?

The problem is the means available to reach this goal. Here, I am not talking about the technical issue of whether we have enough means of production to produce the basket for everyone. And I am not talking about whether the planet can sustain such a level of consumption for everyone, not just proletarians of Europe and North America.

Rather, I am talking about the social movement required to make communism into a reality. Note, I did not say the political means required to make communism a reality. I said social. The problem I have with the phrase, “political means” is that this usually implies some form of a political movement — a political party whose effort is focused on attaining state power.

In fact, we know from the bitter experience of 20th century betrayals that politics cannot break through existing bourgeois social relations. To get to communism we have to go beyond the politics of the bourgeois epoch; we need a movement that directly communizes society.

Here let me propose that our five-year plan for communization of all existing relations take the practical form of a movement to reduce hours of labor to zero in five years.

As I have argued on several occasions, such a progressive reduction of hours of labor must result in the fall of profits before it even begins to affect wages, because this reduction insofar as it does not exceed certain limits only involves the reduction of the surplus labor time on which the profits of capital are premised. According to Marx, this fall has the effect of accelerating the development of the social forces of production; encouraging their maturation and thus maturation of the material conditions for full communism.

To the above effect of a progressive reduction of hours of labor, we can add that the reduction of hours of labor must reduce the existing state and its revenues before it begins to affect the profits of capital. Insofar as the profits of capital are being productively reinvested for the expansion of material production, they are not superfluous to the production of material wealth of the sort we need to realize communism. On the other hand, the revenues of the state are entirely excess of the production of material wealth and, in most case, actually destructive of material wealth.

We want to target the existing state, because its abolition is the precondition for communization of society.

Draining the swamp

Our goal then is to deny both capital and the state a progressively larger share of our surplus labor time over a five year period — to drain the swamp of the surplus labor time on which the capitalists and their state relies. In first place, this denial should force the out-right reduction of the state sector. In second place, it should force concentration and centralization of capital in order to accelerate the development of the social productive forces as capital desperately tries to restore the rate of profit.

The exact mechanism of the above process is described in great detail by Marx in chapter 15 of volume three.

Essentially, we need to begin now to use direct action to impose a progressive reduction of hours of labor according to a schedule I have previously discussed:

How to abolish wage labor within 5 years in five simple steps:

  • STEP ONE: In the first year, add one three day weekend. Each week activists would target one working day to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to four days and all wage labor beyond this point will be targeted.
  • STEP TWO: In the second year, add one four day weekend. Each week activists would target two working days to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to three days and all wage labor beyond this point will be targeted.
  • STEP THREE: In the third year, add one 5 day weekend. Each week activists would target three working days to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to two days and all wage labor beyond this point will be targeted.
  • STEP FOUR: In the 4th year, add one six day weekend. Each week activists would target four working days to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to two days and all wage labor beyond this point will be targeted.
  • STEP FIVE: In the 5th year, add one full week off. Each week activists would target all five working days to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to zero days and all wage labor will be targeted.

This reduction would not be imposed by state laws. In fact, we don’t want anything from the state. We don’t care what politicians promise, nor what laws they propose to enact. They cannot satisfy our demands. We only want them to go away and take their fascist state with them.

We rely only on the direct action of committed communist activists. These working class activists, initially numbering in their thousands or even just hundreds, but eventually in their millions, must begin to disrupt, insofar as this is possible, all wage labor in our society.

By this I mean that, on the specified day of the work week that we intend to abolish, all wage labor is to be discouraged. Activists will take to the streets to physically prevent other workers from working by closing roads, blocking entrances to factories, office parks and public buildings, disrupting the operations of shopping malls, occupying restaurants and bars to prevent the seating of customers, etc.

We must do whatever it takes to peacefully disrupt business (wage slavery) as usual.

At first only serving as isolated propaganda actions, in much the same way as the initial civil rights sit-ins in the South of the United States only served to highlight the abuse to which African American citizens were subject, in time we must see to it that these actions actually begin to disrupt the wage labor system and have a real measurable impact on both capitalist profits and state revenues.

Wage slavery is normalized in our society; seen as a natural and normal condition of society. We must begin to directly challenge the idea that we have to live under the constant threat of starvation. There is no getting past the fact that we must begin, sooner or later, to directly challenge the premises of wage labor.

We cannot evade this issue.

So, where do we begin?

No one can tell you where to begin disrupting the system of wage labor.

There is no central committee.

There is no vanguard party.

There isn’t even a movement.

We begin with nothing. Just like a few activists operating on their own set in motion a process that ultimately brought down segregation in the 1960s. You must directly confront the working class itself and force it to recognize that its slavery is not a natural state of society. The disruption of the system of wage slavery means the direct disruption of the wage slaves who engage in what they think is a natural and ordinary activity. You have to convince them that wage slavery is not natural; that it is horrific; above all, that it is unnecessary.

49 thoughts on “Communization of the Whole World in Five Years or Less: A practical guide”

  1. Great stuff! Here is something from Nietzsche: “In the glorification of work, in the incessant chatter about the “blessings of work,” I discover the same secret thought as in the praise of the benevolent, impersonal actions, namely, the dread of the individual. At the sight of work—which always implies that severe toil from morning till night—we really feel that such work is the best police, that it keeps everybody in bounds, and effectually checks the development of reason, of covetousness, of a desire after independence.”

    Like

  2. This essay is naive if not downright dangerous to the movement for socialism/communism. I use the terms interchangably as Marx did, to describe the new society.

    The consequences of such direct action by maveric self-styled revolutionaries, would be to pit worker against worker and the state machinery of repression would show in its enthusiastic endorsment of ‘head breaking’ and ideological appropriation of previously forgotten fake rights namely the ‘Right to work’.

    The existence of a state implies the existence of a ruling class in whose collective interests the state serves.

    The state has to be captured in order for its machinery of repression to be rendered beyond the use of the parasite capitalist class.

    Socialism is an advanced, post-capitalist, classless, production for use, commonly owned , free access, society run by the people themselves, locally, regionally and globally, in an administration over resources and not over people.

    Because everything will be owned in common, by all and controled democratically by all, with production for use of all and not for sale on a market, in the interests of a parasitic ruling class, a state or government is obsolete.

    Bringing tne new society into being is the task of the immense majority, which is aware as in politically conscious, of its class interests in ending wage slavery and actively inpursuit of those ends in common with workers worldwide.

    This PDF explores in a bit more depth what socialism might look like:
    From Capitalism to Socialism. . . how we live and how we could live
    http://www.worldsocialism.org/sp

    Like

    1. Well, you have certainly proven you have absorbed the pabulum that passes for theory among communists these days. Now all you have to prove is that it works. Write me once you have done that. If you can get these ideas to work, I will gladly do a public self-criticism, fold my tent and enjoy communism.

      Also, I am getting an Error 404 on your pdf. I am not sure if this is on my end or yours.

      Like

      1. Yes apologies for the bad link. Here it is again.

        http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/printpdf/3733

        This is another one entitled ‘What’s wrong with using parliament’ which is more specific in addressing some of the points you raise.

        https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/pamphlets/whats-wrong-using-parliament

        There is nothing will stop an idea which time has come when the immense majority are in favour of it. It will be mosre sensible to uise the ‘Achilles heel’ of capitalism’s bourgeois representative democracy to capture the state and prevent its weapons being turned against the populace, before establishing the delegatory democracy which socialism will be. This will be in tandem with events outside of the political system. The most immediate task is as William Morris put it, ” to make socialists.”

        The nonsense which is propagated as having been ‘socialism’ or has masqueraded as ‘socialistic’ has to be met head on.

        The Russian revolution for example was a post-feudal revolution and even Lenin when he was being honest, had to admit, “..state capitalism would be a step forward for us.”

        Similarly any other so called ‘Left-wing’ experiments, the Labour Party in the U.K. and others were left capitalisms.

        If you really are socialist ,’folding your tent’ is never an option.

        Getting workers heads broken and setting workers against workers by direct action is vanguardist action.

        It is the world’s working class who are their own agents of change in this last great emancipatory wave, they can not be led from above but will need to lead themselves in common with workers worldwide.

        I am with Marx in this regards.

        The world”s working class 90-95% not only produce all of the worlds wealth but increasingly run capitalism from top to bottom.

        When they opt, as the immense majority, to establish a classless, production for use, free access, post-capitalist society and abolish waged slavery, no force will stop them.

        Peacefully if we may, violently if we must. But the peacefull part comes first.

        ” The emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves. We cannot, therefore, co-operate with people who openly state that the workers are too uneducated to emancipate themselves and must be freed from above by philanthropic big bourgeois and petty bourgeois.”(1879 Marx and Engels )
        ===================================================
        “From each according to their abilities to each according to their needs.”.
        ===================================================
        http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/

        Like

      2. It is heartbreaking to read this passage:

        “The essentials of a socialist world are that society’s means of producing and distributing what it needs will be owned by everyone and democratically controlled by everyone. It is from this change that all the other changes will follow.”

        Money, the most important means of producing and distributing is public property and democratically controlled (insofar as anything in society is democratically controlled today). The public ownership money has changed nothing so far. I just don’t know what to make of this sot of argument. In the SU all of industry was at least publicly owned. It had the opposite effect as described in the pdf.

        Like

  3. You do not agree then with classical socialism/communism as it was understood by most workers who adhered to it before the advent of reformist capitalist parties.

    State ownership (miscalled public ownership) is NOT common ownership but elite ownership by a state consisting of a ruling entity. It matters little if the state claims ‘communism’ as a fact, or an objective. Tell workers who worked in state companies, they were living in ‘socialism’, when they were on strike and getting their heads broken.

    Money is a means of exchange and only required when commodites are produced for sale on markets.

    A production for use , free access, post-capitalist society , no longer requires a means of exchange as access can be free and developed informational technology, (bar codes, etc.) can be utilsed in a self regulating system of stock controls wiht instant feedback mechanisms going to the supply chains. The Von Mises Economic Calculation Argument (ECA) is defeated, as socialism is not a command ,(top -down) economy, but goes beyond this into a calculation in kind system (CIK), which we already use in capitalism, monetary calculation is added to it as a consequence of the need for profit.

    Prior to the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia, there was an understanding among many workers, that socialism was a society of common ownership of the means of living where the state, money and national frontiers would be rendered obsolete, and that it could be established peacefully and democratically.

    It was not until August 1918 that the Socialist Standardoffered a considered opinion, and only on the basis of the incomplete information then available, on the Bolshevik seizure of power in a 3,500 word article entitled ‘The Revolution in Russia. Where it Fails’. Even if it represented a worker’s takeover like the 1871 Paris Commune it was not and could not have been a socialist revolution.

    What justification is there, then, for terming the upheaval in Russia a Socialist Revolution? None whatever beyond the fact that the leaders in the November movement claim to be Marxian Socialists. M. Litvinoff practically admits this when he says (p.37):

    “In seizing the reigns of power the Bolsheviks were obviously playing a game with high stake. Petrograd had shown itself entirely on their side. To what extent would the masses of the proletariat and the peasant army in the rest of the country support them?”

    This is a clear confession that the Bolsheviks themselves did not know the views of the mass when they took control. (…)
    http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/1910s/1918/no-168-august-1918/revolution-russia-where-it-fails

    If left-wing parties refuse to take up the revolutionary position which aims at the abolition of the wages system and the conversion of state and private property into common property, then they remain parties of capitalism not withstanding that they claim to oppose it.

    Like

    1. “If left-wing parties refuse to take up the revolutionary position which aims at the abolition of the wages system and the conversion of state and private property into common property, then they remain parties of capitalism not withstanding that they claim to oppose it.”

      My sole quibble with this statement is that “abolition of the wages system” is paired with “common property.” The abolition of the wages system is, of itself, sufficient condition for communism. Everything else — including property titles — is a distraction.

      Like

      1. Common ownership of the means of production and distribution is an essential component of the post-capitalist society to enable mass production of utilities to satisfy human needs. We are not speaking of personal nick nacks here.

        Like

      2. We are not too bothered about legal titles, capitalist private property law will be defunct, but with unhinderred, unimpeded access to the productive capacity which will make production of initial surplusses possible..

        Like

      3. Property in communism is like the political power centered in distribution of oxygen in Total Recall after it is released outside. Ownership becomes redundant when communism is achieved and actually serves to prevent it.

        Jehu knows what he’s talking about.

        Like

      4. Property is a method. It can’t be a system. Communism is when we stop thinking about ownership.

        We do not count oxygen molecules prior to breathing.

        Like

  4. Matthew-I read a portion of the parliamentary piece, and my question throughout is what’s the party’s platform? Or, how many members, and power over what time period? Like, in the us at least, the biggest radical party, as it were, the Greens are an org w/ at least a few mil behind them. Some name recognition, Trump and Clinton historically unpopular candidates, and they got about 1-2% of the vote? In France, did the the commie get above 10%? I’d be surprised if he did. There’s Nepal I guess 🇳🇵🚩.

    I feel like I’d give more credence to a political path to communism if I saw any recent success. The Bolivarian revolution is not on the upswing, Syriza syrendered. So I’m not saying the political path is impossible necessarily but I’d like to see more evidence of success than evidence of creeping irrelevance to ordinary peoples lives.

    I think it might actually be possible to gain power in a city, a small one at least. After years of work. What could this socialist city actually do to make the lives of the residents better? They can’t print their own money, if they go appropriating too much property, probably won’t get bonds, businesses the ones that can, liable to leave on assumption of new taxes, the ones that can’t will be hit by high taxes, taxes necessary to fund whatever one thinks the government should do, assuming the state legislature doesn’t pass a law prohibiting local tax increases or minimum wage increases. I’m not saying the elected govt is powerless necessarily but constrained almost to that point. And without getting into that tangent, because how did the party even reach this tiny molehill? On what platform? What did they promise and how will they do it? Through what organization(s)? Over the course of what time period?

    I’m not saying you (or anyone) has these answers but we should be aiming to answer them, no?

    Like, I think the progressive reduction of labor hours is a good idea. And I feel like it addresses some of the shortcomings, as I see them, of modern political struggle.

    Like

    1. Socialism now. All the arguments I put to you. We never advocate reforms. We insist that people do NOT vote for us if they wish to reform capitalism.

      In the event of a growing socialist consciousness and one of our members being elected. We would not necessarily oppose a reform for the working class being proposed by another political party but judge it on its merits, but our role would be to propagandise inside the elected chamber out to the public about the necessity for revolution and the impossibility of any lasting change from reforms. We would of course oppose any and every war.

      Miniscule a few hundred. Our Declaration of Principles remain unchanged since 1904. The advent of reform parties, with populist measures destined to fail and two world wars supported by pseudo labourites just confirmed us as substantially correct, as advocating reforms would have meant being swamped by non-socialists with capitalist short term agendas.

      We do not aim for power we aim to have the workers empower themselves.

      So they advocate capitalism and get support for this.

      There is no past success either communism is a post-capitalist society.

      What has reforms of capitalism to do with communism/socialism?

      To what. They were elected to run capitalism with a shiny new face. Don’t look at labels look at the ingredients. Waged labour, capital, government OVER the people, production of commodities for sale, no different to any other lefty reformist capitalist party.

      Capitalism can not be reformed.

      So the end of war and poverty forever is a creeping irrelevance?

      We do not stand for election to run capitalism we stand to present the case for socialism unadorned by false promises of reforms. We then measure the support for socialism which is miniscule.

      I do have the answer socialism, as I described it to you. It is not in the gift of any political party, but the work of the immense majority. To this end our task is presently purely educational.

      Yes it is a reform of capitalism which will only come about when workers organise in their unions etc to press this advantage in a boom. There will be great resistance to it from sections of the working class themselves, as understandably, they will wish to make hay ‘work longer’ while the economic sun shines, but in a boom, the parasite class may well grant this, to prevent strikes etc., as they will claw it back when the inevitable crises return and necessitate more austere methods, drastic action, redundancies, while they offshore their ill gotten gains.

      The short comings are to try to get reforms of capitalism, meanwhile poverty, relative and absolute and war by deed or proxy will continue.

      When the working class awake to their historic role of overthrowing capital and establishing a commonly owned world, the parasite class will be throwing reforms at them.

      =====================================

      “Then they’ll raise their hands and say “We’ll meet all your demands”,

      and we’ll shout from the bows, “Your days are numbered,

      and like Pharaoh’s triumph they’ll be drowned in the flood and like Goliath they’ll be conquered. (Dylan: When The Ship Comes In)

      Like

      1. Would that be the same Kliman who thinks a valueless piece of paper (backed by nothing more than a government promise) can express the socially necessary labor time required for production of commodities? That Andrew Kliman thinks Postone was scientifically incompetent? Well, let Professor Kliman know I am willing to debate him on the issue, if he is not too much of an intellectual coward and charlatan.

        Like

      2. It was myself who made the claim of incompetence. Kliman is too nice abloke to say that outight. His argument is much more nuanced.
        I don’t think Kliman would recognise that descripton of LTV’s as circulating in the same way as money. Or as a measure of socially necessary labour time. Why would we need to measure that or have any means of exchange or economic calculation, in a post-capitalist , production for use society?

        I would disagree with him if he did so.

        As for Postone.

        To set the context of Marx’s Capital…

        Capital Volume I is a critique of the political economy of capitalist production, conceived by Marx as the process of producing value as capital.

        In Volume I, Marx investigates capitalist production under idealized conditions in which commodities sell at their values.

        Capital Volume II is a critique of the political economy of capitalist circulation, conceived by Marx as the social process of circulating value as capital.

        In Volume II, Marx investigates capitalist circulation under idealized conditions in which commodities sell at their values.

        Capital Volume III is a critique of the political economy of capitalist distribution, conceived by Marx as the social process of distributing value as capital.

        In Volume III, Marx investigates the interconnected capitalist processes of producing, circulating and distributing value as capital under realistic conditions in which commodities do not sell at their values.

        Just after Engels published Capital Volume III, a marginalist economist and Austrian Minister of Finance, Eugen Böhm-Bawerk, in his book “Karl Marx and the Close of his System”, famously claimed that Marx unconditionally contradicted himself: price = value in Volume I, but price ≠ value in Volume III.

        Böhm-Bawerk had been scientifically trained in conditional methodology, where a scientist investigates idealized conditions before progressively investigating more realistic ones, but he was in no mood to recognize conditional methodology in Marx.

        Postone is scientifically naive. He blithely sidesteps the “unconditional contradiction” by claiming that…

        Marx never intended “to write a critical political economy”.

        Marx never intended to use “the law of value to explain the workings of the market”.

        In other words, Postone wriggles out of his “unconditional contradiction” by unconditionally contradicting Marx’s thoroughly well-known intention, already announced in his well-known Contribution — Marx’s unconditional subtitle to Capital: “A Critique of Political Economy”.

        To this extent Postone has nothing of value to contribute to Marx’s value.

        Andrew Kliman proceeds to consider Postone’s emphasis on Marx’s intentions in Capital — which is philosophical guesswork on Postone’s part — as follows…

        “The crux of the problem, once again, is that Postone is discussing Marx’s intentions and method when the point at issue is instead the logical consistency of his arguments….”
        “I suspect that [Postone’s] misplaced emphasis on intentions and method is due in part to the influence of relativism within much of the humanities and social sciences. If our presuppositions fully determine the conclusions at which we arrive, as relativism holds, then the logic of our arguments is irrelevant; presuppositions lead to conclusions directly, not through logical argument. If that were so, one could bypass the logic of Marx’s arguments and acquit him of error simply by explaining “where he was coming from.” It seems to me that this is the methodology of Postone’s discussion. I do not mean to suggest that he is a relativist; his text indicates otherwise. My point is simply that, if Postone had been working in a different milieu, he might have been more cognizant of the need to respond to allegations that Marx’s arguments are logically flawed.”

        Like

  5. I’m sure you have been on this link, but just in case, there are a number of essays on communization, also spelt communisation, on The Anarchist Library => https://theanarchistlibrary.org/special/index.

    I had recently tweeted from and commented on => “What is communisation?” by Leon de Mattis https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/leon-de-mattis-what-communisation.

    As the social forces of production continue to develop, the requirement or need if you will, for the ‘lower phase’ of communism (sometimes called socialism) is being or already has been rendered superfluous.

    To a large extent, the capitalist class has already done most if not all of the heavy lifting.

    Marx/Engels: “The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part.”

    #SelfEducate #AbolishSurplusLabour

    Like

    1. The so called lower stage was not called ‘socialism’. That distinction was a Leninist distortion of what Marx meant, to justify his putsch and make his state capitalist, post-feudal development, palatable to the wider revolutionary movement.

      Marx did indeed speak of a “political transition period” between capitalism and socialism but never of a “transitional society”.

      What, then, did Marx mean when he spoke of this “transition period”? Contrary to what is generally supposed (largely as a result of decades of Stalinist and Trotskyist propaganda), for Marx this period was not that between the establishment of the common ownership of the means of production and the time when the principle “from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs” could be implemented.

      Rather it is the period during which the working class would be using state power to bring the means of production into common ownership. In other words, the transition period is a political form between the capture of political power by the working class within capitalist society and the eventual establishment of socialism, a period during which the working class has replaced the capitalist class as the ruling class, i.e. as the controller of state power.

      The end of this transition period is the establishment of a classless society based on the common ownership and democratic control by the whole of society of the means of production, with the consequent disappearance of the coercive state, of the system of working for wages, of the production of goods for sale on a market with a view to profit, indeed, of buying and selling, money and the market altogether.
      The idea that “socialism” and “communism” were two successive phases of post-capitalist society is not to be found in Marx, but derives from Lenin. Thus, when Marx writes, in the above quote, of “communist society”, he means precisely the same as when he wrote of “classless society” in 1852.

      It is true that Marx realised that, had socialism been established in his day, it would not have proved possible to implement immediately, or even for some years, the principle “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”, i.e. free access for all to consumer goods and services according to individual need. In the early years of socialism, established at this time, there would inevitably have had to have been some restrictions on access to consumer goods and services, some form of, if you like, “rationing” (if this word’s association with the war-time and post-war ration cards is forgotten, for although full free access according to need would not have been possible in 1875, the amount allocated for consumption could have been considerably higher than the workers were then getting under capitalism).

      Marx repeatedly made it clear that socialism, in both its phases, was a non-market, production-solely-and-directly-for-use society. The Communist Manifesto specifically speaks of “the Communistic abolition of buying and selling”, and of the abolition not only of capital (wealth used to produce other wealth with a view to profit), but of wage labour, too. In Volume I of Capital Marx speaks of “directly associated labour, a form of production that is entirely inconsistent with the production of commodities …”, and, in Volume II, of things being different “if production were collective and no longer possessed the form of commodity production. ..”. Also, in Volume II, Marx, in comparing how socialism and capitalism would deal with a particular problem, twice states that there would be no money to complicate matters in socialism: “If we conceive society as being not capitalistic but communistic, there would be no money-capital at all in the first place. ..”, and, “in the case of socialized production the money-capital is eliminated”. In other words, in socialism the production and distribution of wealth is solely a question of organisation and planning.

      If Marx had really subscribed to this view, that there was another system of society –lasting for a whole “epoch” – between capitalism and socialism, it is curious, to say the least, that he never mentioned it. Nowhere, in fact, does Marx speak of any “transitional society” in between capitalism and socialism.

      He certainly spoke of a “political transition period” and of “a period of revolutionary transformation” between capitalism and socialism but, as we have seen, this was merely the period during which the working class would use its control of state power to establish the common ownership of the means of production, a relatively short political transition period, which would be shorter the higher the development of the means of production was at the time the working class won control of political power.

      By 1900, capitalism had completely outlived its usefulness. From then on only the immediate establishment of world socialism has been “progressive”. From then on, in fact, world socialism – given, of course, the development of a majority socialist movement amongst the working class in the industrialised parts of the world – could have been established “at one stroke” by a more or less world socialist revolution.

      Since 1900, the working class has still, it is true, needed to organise itself to capture political power in all the various states of the world, and, in this sense, a “political transition period” during which the working class uses state power to establish the common ownership of the means of production, is still necessary. However, since this period would be so short as to be negligible, the concept of a transition period has become outdated.

      Similarly, though in the first few years of socialism, as the mess left by capitalism is cleared up, some restrictions on full free consumption may still be necessary, world socialist society could now move rapidly (i.e. in well under a decade at the most) to implementing free access to consumer goods and services according to individual need as the principle of distribution. To sum up, the concept of a “transition period”, lasting some years, between capitalism and socialism is today an obsolete 19th century concept, while the ideal of a “transitional society” between capitalism and socialism, was never to be found in Marx in the first place.

      Like

  6. From “The Communist Manifesto” by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels:

    “When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organised power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.”

    “In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.”

    I have always felt that you could read into the above passage either a “political transition period” or a “transitional society”.

    The capitalist class, or bourgeoisie if you will, have already delivered a good portion of what communism requires, and that is the socialization of labour. What is truly left to realize is the socialization of the surplus value created by this labour. I don’t believe that anybody, including Marx and Engels, believed that would happen overnight.

    Note that although this is a very important passage, that parts of it are left vague, I believe deliberately so: “When, in the course of development…..”, “”If” the proletariat during its contest…..”, “….to organise itself as a class, “if”, by means of a revolution…..”.

    The “course of development” could be seen as either a “political transition period” or a “transitional society” based on the above passage(s). Even the need for a proletariat revolution is left open.

    The “political transition period” has been well under way since the end of WWI, the State has become or is in the process of becoming the national capitalist in most if not all countries. Look at the list of G20 countries as a minimum, there can be no question that the State is the national capitalist in all twenty.

    The bail out of General Motors (GM) in 2008 is a case in point. Why didn’t GM issue shares to the public to raise money or go out to venture capitalists? The only recourse they had was to go to the biggest badest capitalist on the block, the State.

    The “transitional society” may or may not be underway; it would all depend on your point of view. As more and more industries in transportation, communications, agriculture, mining, etc., etc. continue to amalgamate, there can be no question that at some point the operation will fall completely into the hands of the State, again, the biggest badest capitalist on the block.

    Initiatives like raising the minimum wage and basic income will contribute to a “transitional society”, all that left to determine is what will transition.

    Look at something like Sewbot. As that technology continues to mature, you can imagine that at some point, all of our clothing needs can be met with virtually no labour. The transition will begin when machines like that are distributed across the country and the product, the clothing, is free.

    Further, when people begin to show up at airports, or train stations, for example (ONLY), and operate and schedule the trains and planes, without the expectation of a wage, the “transitional society” will be well under way.

    Look at the comment for the Sewbot, “This nimble robot puts at risk an industry that employs 60 million to 75 million people around the world.”, these people are now free to contribute to the operation of transportation, communications, agriculture, mining, etc., etc., so that the people employed there now, can work less.

    As far as I can tell, the “transitional society” began when the work week was reduced from 7 to 6 to 5 days, and the work day from 12 to 10 to 8 hours. There is absolutely no reason that we could not go to 4 days/6 hours tomorrow.

    Like

    1. “When, in the course of development, class distinctions have disappeared, and all production has been concentrated in the hands of a vast association of the whole nation, the public power will lose its political character. Political power, properly so called, is merely the organised power of one class for oppressing another. If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.”

      “In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all.”

      <<I have always felt that you could read into the above passage either a “political transition period” or a “transitional society”.

      The transitional period is inside capitalism when workers realise their class interests in overthrowing the capitalist class. The apparent confusion as to transitional society is really because at the initial time Marx was writing, capitalism was still underdeveloped and this led to speculative assumptions of how to deal with scarce resources in a free access, production for use voluntary work situation, and theories about labour time vouchers and so on (LTVs). Those were not meant to circulate or be a means of exchange.

      He did not see a two stage development of the type Lenin's distortions provided, a consequence of post-feudal rather than post-capitalist scenarios.

      We could go straight into free access socialism/communism since the beginning of last century. 1900 onwards.

      .
      <<The capitalist class, or bourgeoisie if you will, have already delivered a good portion of what communism requires, and that is the socialization of labour. What is truly left to realize is the socialization of the surplus value created by this labour. I don’t believe that anybody, including Marx and Engels, believed that would happen overnight.

      <Note that although this is a very important passage, that parts of it are left vague, I believe deliberately so: “When, in the course of development…..”, <“”If” the proletariat during its contest…..”, “….to organise itself as a class, “if”, by means of a revolution…..”.

      The “course of development” could be seen as either a “political transition period” or a “transitional society” based on the above passage(s). Even the need for a proletariat revolution is left open.

      Not at all.

      “All previous historical movements were movements of minorities, or in the interest of minorities. The proletarian movement is the self-conscious, independent movement of the immense majority, in the interest of the immense majority.” (Marx and Engels, 'The Communist Manifesto', 1848)
      Marx could not be clearer that this had to be the act of the immense majority and not some minority ,elite led vanguardist type coup.

      " The emancipation of the working classes must be conquered by the working classes themselves. We cannot, therefore, co-operate with people who openly state that the workers are too uneducated to emancipate themselves and must be freed from above by philanthropic big bourgeois and petty bourgeois."(1879 Marx and Engels ) https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1879/letters/79_09_15.htm

      We will not need the state, nor will we produce surplus value to be realised by elites, but utilise advanced capitalism's infrastructure, technology and informational resources in the service of maximising production for use, run by us all locally, regionally and globally in a delegatory democratic administration of resources to enable the operating tenet of,.. "From Each according to their abilities to each according to their needs", with needs and abilities to be the self assessed determinations of free men and women in socially equal relations to the means of production and distribution and each other.

      All that prevents this is winning the immense majority to the political realisation, that of their class interests, to make the capitalist class and its governments over the people redundant.

      That is the most important task. Capitlsm will not gradually transform itself while you are correct it makes it own grave-diggers and its technological develoments make the new society all the more practically self-evidentiall possible , winning the battle of ideas is the main task and must not be highjacked by the chimera of reforms or gradualism.

      Like

      1. I can’t tell if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing or you are trying to make a point. If you are trying to make a point, it is not clear to me at all.

        It is my understanding that the advanced stage of socialism, referred to as upper-stage communism, in the Critique of the Gotha Programme differs from lower-stage socialism primarily based on the ownership of the means of production.

        Upper-stage communism would be based on common ownership of the means of production, while lower-stage communism (often refered to as socialism) would be based on public ownership (by a state apparatus) or cooperative ownership (by a worker cooperative enterprise).

        Now, returning to the previous quote that I posted:

        Marx/Engels: “If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.”

        The first part of that => “If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances……..”, is clear, lower-stage communism would only be required based on the circumstances. If Lenin felt that was a necessity in Russia, then he must have felt the circumstances warrented it.

        Whatever Lenin believed does not change how Marx and Engels present the potential solutions.

        I believe the point that Jehu was making and I concur is that the capitalist class has done all of the heavy lifting, the potential need for lower-stage communism has passed.

        Like

      2. <<I can’t tell if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing

        Certainly not my time is too precious for that.

        <<or you are trying to make a point. If you are trying to make a point, it is not clear to me at all.

        That is my bad formulations then.

        <<It is my understanding that the advanced stage of socialism, referred to as upper-stage communism, in the Critique of the Gotha Programme differs from lower-stage socialism primarily based on the ownership of the means of production.

        <<Upper-stage communism would be based on common ownership of the means of production, while lower-stage communism (often refered to as socialism) would be based on public ownership (by a state apparatus) or cooperative ownership (by a worker cooperative enterprise).

        I disagree that there will be a lower stage of that kind. Capturing the state will be to disarm its coercive state apparatus and not to run so called 'public' ownership or cooperative ownership. The wokers themselves will run a commonly owned world, free access commonwealth, locally, regionally and globally.

        <<Now, returning to the previous quote that I posted:

        <<Marx/Engels: “If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances, to organise itself as a class, if, by means of a revolution, it makes itself the ruling class, and, as such, sweeps away by force the old conditions of production, then it will, along with these conditions, have swept away the conditions for the existence of class antagonisms and of classes generally, and will thereby have abolished its own supremacy as a class.”

        < “If the proletariat during its contest with the bourgeoisie is compelled, by the force of circumstances……..”, is clear, lower-stage communism would only be required based on the circumstances. If Lenin felt that was a necessity in Russia, then he must have felt the circumstances warranted it.

        But Lenin was not establishing socialism or lower based communism, an impossibility in any case, but distorting Marx to justify minority rule over the workers and peasants. What we said in 1918 and later can be overviewed here,

        https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2017/no-1358-october-2017/was-russia-ever-socialist

        <<Whatever Lenin believed does not change how Marx and Engels present the potential solutions.

        <<I believe the point that Jehu was making and I concur is that the capitalist class has done all of the heavy lifting, the potential need for lower-stage communism has passed.

        Well that I agree with. We have been saying so since 1904. So too did Marx and Engels who were delighted with the possibility of bourgeois democracy being capitalism's Achilles heel and opening up the potential capture of the state machine.

        But the only task for socialists is to make the immense majority to bring that into fruition and not to lead them up left-wing alleys which retain waged slavery, or dishonestly, supporting reform parties of capitalism as Lenin indicated, "as the rope supports the hanging man".

        The Left have much to their discredit in misleading workers perceptions, as to what socialism consists off.

        Like

  7. Matthew- Again, what’s your rough talking point for ‘socialism now’?

    Jehu’s strategy, one I agree with until I hear a better one, is that commies should fight to directly and progressively reduce hours of labor. Cool, I’m on board for the reasons he articulates.

    Another group of commies I fucks with is a party with drastically less power and influence than the us green party. So pretty dang irrelevant politically, although I still attend meetings. Their strategy is to seize state power, make the state work for the workers, good jobs, living wage, anti-racism etc. I’m not against these things necessarily, just that 1) I’m skeptical they could achieve these goals if they did ‘seize power’ 2) I’m skeptical they could seize power in the first place because they’re such a small, powerless organization.

    So it bothers me that they have an ill defined strategy for success given their constraints as an organization. Now, I’d be bothered a lot less if their strategy was something like, ‘ok comrades, we’re putting every ounce of muscle into seizing power in Jackson, Mississippi!’ Nice! I could maybe see it! Still have a shitload of questions, like ‘then what you gonna do and how you gonna do what you wanna do when you in power?’ But I’d see it as a step in the right direction.

    Like, I’m a worker (well unemployed worker) and a commie both. So I read Marx, other commies bc I’m a commie. But im not going to tell a fellow worker, working themselves to death that the answer is ‘communism.’ That doesn’t tell them anything. May as well say freedom or liberty. If I say, each according to need blah blah blah, they might be like, if they’re willing to listen, ‘hmm how do we do that bruh?’ What do I say? What’s my sales pitch?

    Like, most people don’t give two flying fucks about Marx. Most people care about putting food on the table, and keeping a roof over their heads. I think it’s irrelevant to most people if socialism will ‘ultimately’ deliver this and more when their ‘immediate’ concerns are so urgent. So people get desperate and want to believe the easy evil answers for why they can’t seem to get ahead. It’s the Muslims, the Mexicans, the Chinese… And who can blame them, because what clear, understandable and realistic alternatives do socialists offer? Hard to say.

    Like

    1. <<Jehu’s strategy, one I agree with until I hear a better one, is that commies should fight to directly and progressively reduce hours of labor. Cool, I’m on board for the reasons he articulates.

      He was saying more than that in his earlier piece which would set worker against worker.

      You do all that inside the labour movement. It is just a normal everyday part of the class struggle. I have been in enough shop steward committees where politically motivated 'leftists' were pursuing other agendas, than the task which workers had entrusted them engage in, to ensure better wages and conditions.

      But trade unions are a part of capitalism and gains can only be made in advantageous economic circumstances in slumps and downturns then a defensive role is the only option. Unions should not be supporting any parties of capitalism, but should play them of against each other for their members benefit.

      <<Another group of commies I fucks with is a party with drastically less power and influence than the us green party. So pretty dang irrelevant politically, although I still attend meetings. Their strategy is to seize state power, make the state work for the workers, good jobs, living wage, anti-racism etc. I’m not against these things necessarily, just that 1) I’m skeptical they could achieve these goals if they did ‘seize power’ 2) I’m skeptical they could seize power in the first place because they’re such a small, powerless organization.

      Their policies are as irrelevant as the Greens, pretty irrelevant and impossible too. Certainly nothing to do with communism/socialism but about reformism. The notion of 'seizing power' shows they have learned nothing from history. They wish to retain the wages system, instead of advocating its abolition. They wish to become the new ruling class on the pretext of being an enlightened vanguard 'leadership' , political sophisticates, who will lead the confused masses to the vaguely defined promised land.

      They are aping their Lenin forebear who thought ,"..the working class, exclusively by its own effort, is able to develop only trade union consciousness," in contradiction to the Marx quote I put up earlier.

      <<So it bothers me that they have an ill defined strategy for success given their constraints as an organization. Now, I’d be bothered a lot less if their strategy was something like, ‘ok comrades, we’re putting every ounce of muscle into seizing power in Jackson, Mississippi!’ Nice! I could maybe see it! Still have a shitload of questions, like ‘then what you gonna do and how you gonna do what you wanna do when you in power?’ But I’d see it as a step in the right direction.

      It would not be so. Just more confused infantile leftist posturing.

      <<Like, I’m a worker (well unemployed worker) and a commie both. So I read Marx, other commies bc I’m a commie. But im not going to tell a fellow worker, working themselves to death that the answer is ‘communism.’ That doesn’t tell them anything. May as well say freedom or liberty. If I say, each according to need blah blah blah, they might be like, if they’re willing to listen, ‘hmm how do we do that bruh?’ What do I say? What’s my sales pitch?

      Well as I am a worker also, now retired I feel your pain 🙂 But I have never shirked from describing the new society as a post-capitalist one and explained, despite accusations of preaching, what this will consist of and why the pseudo socialists of the Labour Party in the place I live are not and never have been socialists, and why I oppose the descriptions of communism attributed to the state capitalist monstrosities, lauded by 'communist ' parties. I have done this through the Soviet heyday and been threatened on many occasions by bully boy 'leftists' for doing so.

      <<Like, most people don’t give two flying fucks about Marx. Most people care about putting food on the table, and keeping a roof over their heads. I think it’s irrelevant to most people if socialism will ‘ultimately’ deliver this and more when their ‘immediate’ concerns are so urgent.

      Of course this is so because socialism is not on the horizon and will not be until workers themselves realise their place in history.

      <<So people get desperate and want to believe the easy evil answers for why they can’t seem to get ahead. It’s the Muslims, the Mexicans, the Chinese…

      And who can blame them, the left wing are peddling nonsense, such as they can deliver 'fair wages', a more equitable society, redistribution of wealth, etc.

      Capitalism can NOT be reformed and has to be replaced.

      <<because what clear, understandable and realistic alternatives do socialists offer?

      Socialism is immediately realisable and understandable. It only requires a majority to dissolve the politicians and elect themselves once they understand and desire it. It is understandable because I can understand it and others I know are just members of the working class and can understand it. It doesn't need to be some obscurantist academic screed. There are just not enough of us at this juncture.

      <<Hard to say.

      I think it proceeds from gaining some credibility from activists speaking the truth to themselves as what socialism is and is not, instead of pretending reforms of capitalism are worth the political striving of a revolutionary party, when they are just poorly contrived populist measures to gain power which will always be OVER the workers. Any party which gains power by this route will be administering some form of capitalism and using the state to reinforce its power.

      The class struggle will continue ad infinitum without its political capture by leftist industrial wings or fake shortcuts by enthusiastic pseudo-socialistic students.

      There is no short cut to the fact that the socialist revolution has to be the politically conscious and aware act of the immense majority.

      Like

      1. Let me see if I got this straight, the gist of the original post was => “As can be inferred from this short description of communization, communizers dispense with the so-called ‘lower phase’ of communism (sometimes called socialism) and move directly to a fully functioning communist society where that will be no classes, money or state.”

        I agreed with that, I said => “I believe the point that Jehu was making and I concur is that the capitalist class has done all of the heavy lifting, the potential need for lower-stage communism has passed.”

        So, after a long series of seemingly pointless comments, you finally replied => “Well that I agree with.”

        As for your comment => “Certainly not my time is too precious for that.”, I can only think of one reply => lmao!

        Like

      2. That ignores all this nonsense below *which is activistic nonsense which will set worker against worker under the delusion we can short-cut workers acheiving socialism by their own efforts . Who are you to support this? Who is Jehu or anyone else ot ‘intervene’. It smacks of Leninist , Jacobinist leaderist nonsense.

        * How to abolish wage labor within 5 years in five simple steps:

        STEP ONE: In the first year, add one three day weekend. Each week activists would target one working day to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to four days and all wage labor beyond this point will be targeted.
        STEP TWO: In the second year, add one four day weekend. Each week activists would target two working days to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to three days and all wage labor beyond this point will be targeted.
        STEP THREE: In the third year, add one 5 day weekend. Each week activists would target three working days to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to two days and all wage labor beyond this point will be targeted.
        STEP FOUR: In the 4th year, add one six day weekend. Each week activists would target four working days to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to two days and all wage labor beyond this point will be targeted.
        STEP FIVE: In the 5th year, add one full week off. Each week activists would target all five working days to disrupt all wage labor. The work week will now be reduced to zero days and all wage labor will be targeted.

        Like

      3. Only an idiot identifies as a worker. You wish to be something and you admit you are not there yet, but to identify means you decided that work is fundamental to your existence rather than a condition imposed upon you by historical momentum and societal organization.

        I wish to be a beach monger. Wish me luck.

        Like

      4. Labour appled to nature is the source of all wealth.

        There are two classes in society whether you like it or not. The working class and the capitalist class.

        The capitalist class own all the means of production and distribution either privately ,corporately or organisd by the state.

        The working class own little or nothing other than their labour power which they have ot hawk for subsistence rations (wages-salaries).

        If you are born poor you will die poor and if born rich most lilkely you will die even richer.

        To remedy this state of affairs requires class consciousness.

        You’ll find out if you stray onto a private beach which category you are in.

        Like

      5. Capitalism needs no replacement. It is the perversion derived directly from the concept of financial profit. Profit is our answer to reality’s chaos and tendency to erase progress. We need an economic system in which material, not currency profit is the goal.

        Like

      6. Private ownership of productive and distributive resources by private, corporate or state elites for the production of commodites to the ends of enriching those elites,needs replaced with common ownership for the production of utilites for free access and use of all under delegatory democratic principles exercised by all.

        Then money capital and elites become superfluous.

        Like

    1. Matthew- What are you going on about man? Do you have an alternative, concrete strategy for achieving socialism and can you explain it? Simply, if possible. I’m not asking you to explain what socialism is, I don’t want you to call anyone a Leninist. I get you disagree with Jehu and I get all the other commies are a bunch of reformist phonies. But can you give a clear, concise explanation of YOUR preferred strategy for achieving socialism. Preferably in 5-20 years.

      Like

      1. There is not a snonwball in hells chance of any such thing, which goes beyond patient education as to what socialism is and is not.

        Our business[…] is the making of Socialists, i.e. convincing people that Socialism is good for them and is possible. When we have enough people of that way of thinking, they will find out what action is necessary for putting their principles in practice. Therefore, I say, make Socialists. We Socialists can do nothing else that is useful.”

        — William Morris

        Like

  8. Your links to the CPI were a red herring and did bot actually answer the question “what does one person need?”. Because, of course, the question is incoherent. There is no “need”, only “want”. That point is Hayek’s most important contribution to the discourse. “Social justice” is incoherent. “Ability” and “need” are spooks, most especially in the absence of social context, as in this essay that disgustingly flattens the world.

    Like

    1. Don’t you find it odd that “need” has to be incoherent for your theories to work? You use the term, need, at least a dozen times a day, but you now tell me that the term is incoherent?

      Like

      1. Need is a problem. It allows the most successful orators to develop a fixed unchanging (no more progress) self serving strategy and promote it as an urgent plan which must not change so that it can defend the progress it does achieve.

        Want is a problem. It ignores the way needs force people to choose labor to survive over liberty and happiness.

        Any sort of future must not be based on ability and need but rather the right to survive despite doing absolutely nothing and the material needs that require contribution should be filled based on distribution of tools and raw materials to local centers with no restriction on access.

        Decency must be a daily, generationally developed cultural cornerstone not mere theory and enforced rules.

        Like

      2. That is implied in the operating tenet of .”from each according to (self-determined)abilities to each according to (self-determined)needs”.

        The conditions of production for use, allied to utilisation of the technological, robotic and informational capacities taken from advanced capitalism, enables the production of a relative superabundance of necessities to this end. As Lafurgue put it in, “The Right to be Lazy.”

        In fact though labour, as in the expenditute of energy, is a natural predisposition, so it shouldn’t be a problem.

        Like

      3. Western culture is built on self abuse. Self determination must be explicitly encoded not implied.

        Like

      4. False.

        People are easily conned into work. We want all kinds of things to prove our worth. This is built into the fact western culture worships logic over empathy.

        Like

      5. Work as opposed to employment, is good for its own sake.It is not a question of ‘worshiping’ empathy over logic but of enabling a human centred application of it. Elite ownership and control over the means of living mitigates against the full development of each of our human capacities.

        Like

      6. Fair enough. But again employment and broken bones is what a lot of people glorify. And work as an exploration is good, but development for whom? There’s an old saying: Hack to learn. Don’t learn to hack.

        Like

  9. I’m highly intrigued by your view of a practical guide towards the communization of society, although I do believe that your proposed method falls short and is quite overly economistic. Discounting the problems with restructuring the entirety of human society within ~5 years or so, focusing on disrupting wage labor itself does nothing to address the other reinforcing factors of bourgeois society such as state apparatuses. Perhaps more wide-ranging community-based strategies in tandem with your proposal of economic disruption could work?

    Like

    1. I understand your concern, but I think it is misplaced. If you think about it, there is no more wide-ranging strategy that touches on every aspect of social life than hours of labor. Can you think of a single other issue that so comprehensively addresses inequality, racism, immigration, sexism, housing, poverty, concentration of wealth, and the climate crisis in one measure?

      Like

Leave a reply to matthew culbert Cancel reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.